#113 - Storytellers I Admire: Darian Kovacs
On Moana and Representation in the Canada’s Marketing Industry
Welcome, welcome back to our Storytellers I Admire series. We’re back with interviews from storytellers of all kinds doing interesting work in their fields.
This month’s feature after summer hiatus, I got to sit down and chat with Darian Kovacs. He is a multi-hyphenate storyteller making important contributions to the Canadian marketing landscape. A marketer, business owner, podcast producer, and dad Darian is a busy man doing great, practical work for his clients through is business Jelly Digital Marketing & PR and the students of Jelly Academy. The academy helps professionals upskill their digital marketing abilities and offers scholarships to BIPOC folks and women to ensure greater representation in Canada’s marketing landscape. On top of running his own business he also produces and hosts the Marketing News Canada podcast, Canada's #1 show about all things marketing and advertising where he has interviewed some of Canada and the world’s most influential marketers.
As an Indigenous business leader, Darian has made a point of helping to create equity and access for traditionally marginalized folks in the largely white Canadian marketing industry which includes working with key groups to amplify the skills of Indigenous entrepreneurs, including MNBC and CCAB.
We talked about everything from the powerful message of Moana to what it means to be a genius and the challenge of creating “thumb-stopping content” in marketing. And, of course, storytelling. This one will be a great one for the marketers, advertisers, and business owners who are the people Darian creates for and anyone curious about the world of marketing in Canada and how one finds themselves as a leader and voice for equity in the space. Grab a cuppa, curl up, and enjoy.
Darian Kovacs, Founding Partner, Jelly Digital Marketing & PR
Okay. Let's dive in. The first question is just, what's your story?
Darian: What's my story? That's a great question. What is my story? It's like, (sings) "This is my story, this is my song". Do you know that song?
It sounds like a Disney song. It's tickling my brain, but I can't place it.
D: Close. I grew up in place called Tsawwassen. This older gentleman, Jeff Witcherock, used to pick me up Saturday mornings, starting in grade 10 and we'd go to Vancouver's East End, Canada's poorest postal code. We'd stop at Houwelings Nursery first and pick up any curved cucumbers. Cucumbers, if not watered properly, start to curve. So we picked those up and we dropped them off for The Sisters, which was a convent downtown, and they would make cucumber sandwiches. Because fun fact, well, not fun fact, kind of sad fact, but in East End Vancouver, there's not issues of hunger as much as there's diabetes and obesity. Because there's tons of food there, but it's mostly white pasta and not super healthy food.
The Sisters would get our cucumbers from Houwelings and make really good healthy sandwiches with whole wheat bread and fresh cucumbers. Then we would do this soup kitchen thing called Food on the Corner. People would get groceries, fresh groceries, which is great, and then there'd be soup. There would always be these hymn singers. I mean, anyone could sing, but it was this old hymn. It's like, "This is my story, this is my song, praising my Savior all the day long."
That's so funny.
D: So, every Saturday as a kid, I’d hear it sung in different pitches and abilities to sing. But it was sung every week.
You just tickled the church-going part of my brain, which has long laid dormant. Thank you for that (laughs)
D: It's a great song (laugh).
Yeah. No. It stays with you apparently. Okay, so what's your story, outside of that wonderful story. What's your story?
D: What is my story? I feel like I haven't paused to think about that in a very long time. I now have four children. I can give you the chapter I'm in now. There are often many chapters in a story, so the chapter I'm in now is dad and husband. Kids are 3, 7, 8, and 15, so a lot of time with them. We're in a home now that has a yard, which needs caring for as well. So I feel I've taken on another living creature in that as well. Then I work, trying to work really. I work in a marketing slash academic slash trade publication world. So dancing between those three places and trying to help where I can. Make the world a bit of a better place if I can.
How do you feel like you're making the world a better place? Or what are your ambitions around that idea of making the world a better place?
D: Yeah. It's quite embarrassing, but you know that whole, I was today years old, or I was yesterday years old when I discovered something? I think it was that for me [with equity in the world of marketing].
So we owned a conference called the Canadian Internet Marketing Conference. We had it acquired, but I missed the part of it where we would interview people and get to know people. The intimate off-stage part is what I missed the most. So I kept a podcast going of interviewing people that would normally be speaking on stages at this event. I loved hearing their stories and what they were working on. About what's new and what's trending. At the same time a friend of mine, Mike Morrison, ran this event called SocialWest and he had this thing called the Hashtag Awards. I was like, "Hey Mike, we should do the Hashtag Awards and we're happy to help you with it." And I was like, "Hey, let's add on a thing like, the Marketing Hall of Fame." Because they have it in the States, but they didn't have it in Canada yet. But I wanted us to do our research first. So we looked into what other awards there were in Canada. Marketing awards and advertising awards. It was wild, this was three years ago, and at the time, there was no jury members who weren't white. Every jury on every marketing award. Advertising was completely white. All the winners were only ever white. That day, I was like, "Oh man, I'm today years old when I realized I am part of a racist industry". Cause I thought, being in advertising marketing, we're all creative--
Forward thinking--
D: Right? I totally thought that. I was like, "Man, we're so cool. We're so progressive". I think that was really shocking. Again, I'm telling that story because I think we still live in a world where there's inequity, where there is imbalance. So in response, I was like, "Hey, what if we brought a bit of balance to the world?" Part of the motivation as well was, it was also predominantly Toronto-focused. So we made sure that we had a lot of west coast writers as part of our publications. There was also another publication in Canada that, again, only would ever hire white writers. So we're like, "What if we had people who weren't white writing?". It's a crazy concept, crazy idea.
Just groundbreaking (laughs).
D: Could they be jury members as well? And I was like, "Whoa!". I don't know if it's being different, but it's more doing the right thing. I think it's being open and inclusive. I don't even know if I like the word inclusive as much as, it's just what we should be doing. I don't think we did anything innovative. We get all this feedback saying, “you advanced the industry and did this progressive thing.” I'm thankful that people are so positive about what we did, but I'm also like, it's just what we should have done. It's just what should have been happening all along.
I think I'm trying to understand, okay, what else is out there right now that's unequal? Whether it's access to good education. Access to good, proper hardware so people can become marketers. Whether it's access to teaching that could be taught by people who look like them. That's part of the stuff we're doing with Jelly Academy. The story of that is more, could we make the world a little bit better place? There's this whole theory of, can you use your business as a force for good?
How do you feel about that idea?
D: Yeah. I love the concept of people becoming B Corps and being held accountable to it and this amazing B Corp registration system. But I think sometimes it's also that business can be just really boring. You're not always saving lives and changing the world. You show up and you do the work and you do a great job and get paid. But sometimes it's just, paying people fairly. You pay your bills on time. And that's actually okay. That can also be changing the world, cause some people don't do that. Treat people fairly.
The thing I like about B Corp certification is doing good is embedded in even how you hire people, how you treat your water system at work, electricity in your work. Even if you don't pass, or you don't get approved, going through the B Corp registration system is a really fun exercise of, "Hey, here's some standard, or gold standard, or B standard, that you could look forward to or work on, to be a business that could make the world a bit of a better place".
Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I run my own small business, as you know. It's just me, and one of my first things was, I want to become a B Corp corporation. I looked into it and I was like, "Oh, I'm nowhere near ready to do this". But it did provide guidelines for things to think about as I'm building out my business. Totally agree. So speaking of your business, tell me about work you do that brings you joy.
D: I personally like coming up with ideas. We have this client that's a candy distributor. They distribute candy, and we're doing some work for them, some videos and marketing work with them. But we're like, "How do we get them some PR?" They're a distributor of candy. Nothing that exciting. So we're coming up with some data and some stats about candy consumption in Canada. That could be a way. But then the idea came, what if we created a job that was you got to be a candy taster? Like legit. We post it on Indeed, put it out there, we sent it out to a bunch of editors, and sent out to the press, and it just took off like crazy. We're talking over 600 lands in a few weeks, as far as radio shows, syndication, major publications all picked up the story. Radio, especially loved it. Like, "Hey DJ Sally over there, do you know that you could become a candy taster?". "Oh, what? I could become a candy taster?". The amount of backlinks they got. And awareness.
I love that stuff, what people call shower thoughts, or those genius moments. Interesting fact, the term genius got adopted by Apple as meaning people are super smart with computers and you go to a Genius Bar, but the root of that word means "from the genie". So it's people who kind of live in this spirit realm and actually are these creatives that get these downloads from the genie, or from netherworld, the spirit realm, who can come up with those ideas. But our agency is not hired for genius thoughts. For those from the spirit thoughts, you go to Rethink. You go to these really great agencies like The&Partnership for those things. We get hired for more like, someone called us once early on in COVID and told us, "Well we switched to your agency because you're more like a boring agency". But they meant it as a compliment.
Tell me more about that.
D: They were really sweet about it. I was like, "Oh, okay". They were like, "Yeah, we just need someone who can really focus on our data. Just focus on leads". So we're known for focusing on leads. We get hired by law firms and brands who are like, "I need leads. Here's my Facebook budget or here's my Google budget.
People building the practical elements of their business, it sounds like. Cool. Okay. So how would you define a story? Or another way to think about that question is, what makes a good story in your world?
D: These days, what is considered thumb-stopping content.
Ooh, okay. Tell me more.
D: Like what would cause someone to as they're scrolling or swiping, whatever way they're going, whether they're on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook, whatever device, and maybe LinkedIn or Reddit. What's going to cause them to stop their thumb from scrolling? That is a story. Well, that is a captivating story. Our job on the PR side especially, is how do we come alongside a reporter or an editor and say, "Hey, we've got facts. We've got data. Whether it's new data and new information that you can make a story with. Or we've got something that's never happened before". I think in PR, it's all about story. And how do you give others the seed of a story so they could nurture it and grow it into an actual article?
I find though, I'd say about 80% of the time, someone comes to us with what they think is a story and it's not. It's typically, I'm amazing, I'm great, I've been running this business. But it's not newsworthy yet. Like even the candy distributor, they didn't do anything newsworthy. Maybe we could get some data on candy consumption, but again, you got to get some research and some data, top five candies people eat in Canada. That's a story. But then it was, you could become a candy taster. That's a story, because it's something you would talk about. Something interesting. Something maybe even provocative. That's what people want to talk about, we use this term called newsjacking, of what's happening in the news right now. How does your brand and your organization connect to it? How does your story connect with their story? Like on a Venn diagram.
“I'd say about 80% of the time, someone comes to us with what they think is a story and it's not. It's typically, I'm amazing, I'm great, I've been running this business. But it's not newsworthy yet.”
Thank you for sharing that. That idea of thumb-stopping is a net new, I think, for a lot of people who will be reading this. So thanks so much. I love that term and it is net new to me. And I very rarely hear a new term in the marketing world these days. So tell me a bit about, from your perspective, what makes thumb stopping content?
D: Yeah. It's usually like a great image. Or video. Think of hyperboles or even, there's a book that came out a while ago by a guy named Gary Chapman. He wrote a book called The Five Love Languages. So it's people receive love and give love in different ways, depending on their love language. So one of Google's great love languages, because they want content on Google to appear agnostic and educational and helpful and supportive, cause they want to be a helpful, supportive search engine is, are you doing things like top five cat sweater companies in BC, top 10 this. Or this versus this. White Claw versus Nutrl. What agnostic, neutral, third party data or information or listical are you providing?
Because our brains are wired to like quick doses of information. And it should be selfish and narcissistically pleasing to the person in many ways. So it's that, or it's something shocking. I can't believe this happened! You hear the term click bait. But ideally there's ways to make it where it's actually helpful and useful and interesting.
Thank you for sharing that. My next question, I always need to caveat first. The question itself is, what made you realize you were a storyteller? But I have learned in doing these interviews is, a better question to start with is, do you consider yourself a storyteller?
D: Yeah. I would. Yes. Honestly yes, I would.
Great. Good start. What made you realize or decide or identify the fact that you were a storyteller? Was there a moment of realization?
D: Well, I remember being a buddy in elementary school. I was in grade five and the buddy was in grade one, and we picked up a Robert Munsch book off the shelf, Murmel, Murmel, Murmel. I just read this to this grade one kid as a grade fiver, and I think that's when I knew I was good at this. When you learn to read, you have the power and the ability to be a storyteller. And it doesn't need to be your own story. Which I think is an okay place to be. I have a podcast where 99% of the content on it is other people's story and their information. There are people like Gary Vaynerchuk or these incredible quote-unquote thought leaders that have ideas and opinions and are really banging this drum of something they wanted to say.
Whereas, I don't really have that. I don't have a unique, original idea. I don't have a podium I need. I like other people's stories. I like reading other people's stories. I like amplifying other people's stories. I like figuring out. I think my job is, if you've ever seen The Lord of The Rings, there's this part where they go into the Mines of Moria, where the trolls’ job in the mine is to go in and find these gems and to pull them back out of the ground in the earth. If I can pull those gems out of a person, discover them in that time and that place, then I've done an okay job.
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I used to be a journalist, now I'm a marketer. I'm also a marketer who now tries to share the stories of other people through this newsletter and in my work. I always like to think about that idea of sharing other people's stories, as opposed to telling my own stories, even though I'm also a writer. For me, all of the things that you just said are a yes. A thousand times yes. Because I feel like marketers and journalists especially, are people who create stories and craft things that they put out into the world, but it's almost always telling other people's stories. And that is a very, very specific skill. And valuable skill.
D: There's so many great people who maybe haven't told their story at all, or haven't told the fullness of it yet and part of me is like until I've done that, until I've achieved that, I don't feel like I have much to say yet.
Yes. I think there are so many people out there with amazing stories who don't know how to tell them, and that's where a great marketer comes in. That's where a great journalist comes in, depending on the type of story. You work in that interesting place between marketing and journalism because you do so much PR work. I find that especially interesting when it comes to that notion of, who's telling this story? Who's it for? Whose story is it? All of those questions start to play a role in the world you live in it feels like to me. On that same note, who is your audience? Who do you create for? Is another way to think of that.
D: Yeah. When I do create content it's, again, me just typically interviewing someone else. It's typically about other marketers, other advertisers in the Canadian marketing and communications, PR, advertising landscape.
So you would say, that's your audience? Those people?
D: Yeah. I'd say 80% them, and then 20% would be like a business owner who's excited about marketing or interested in marketing.
What makes the Canadian advertiser market or communications person, what makes that audience different or interesting would you say?
D: I think they are other folks who are, again, creative. They want to be innovative. They want to push the envelope. They want to learn more. They want to be on the edge of what's new and what's current. Same thing with students. We've done more and more interviews aimed at even students who are going into marketing and advertising, the creative field. They tend to be more, I think, more open and interested in what's possible. They're just a cool bunch. I feel like they're my peers. So, if they can listen in on a conversation I'm having, and the conversation just happens to be recorded, and they can benefit from some of the ideas that the person is sharing, then awesome. And if we could syndicate that and get it into their earbuds and headphones and whatever program they're listening to it with, then great. It's awesome.
What drew you to marketing as a field?
D: You know what it was? I was originally going to being a painter. I went to school to be a painter and a drawer and a photographer in 1999. I went to the University of Victoria. Then I discovered what's called Child and Youth Care. It's more of a practical route. My mom was like, "You got to be really practical". So I was on the road to being what was called a Child Life Worker in the hospital setting. They do art and play therapy with kids. I worked in a children's hospice, I think they were called Connect Place, doing art and play therapy stuff there as well, thinking that was my career.
But then I got the great chance to work at a couple of different youth groups settings. One was for the city of Surrey. One was at a church doing youth group events. In that, so much of youth groups and youth meetings are about marketing and getting people to show up and promoting things. At the time, MySpace had just launched. Facebook was just available to university students. I found that fascinating. I had written a bunch of curriculum that I got published and I ended up publishing a bunch of other stuff for other folks as well. I ran a publishing company. Again, I learned so much of it was about PR and promotions. Then I did some events and ran events for this thing in Canada called The Youth Specialties. Again, so much of events was about the PR and the connections there.
Often I would even do these events and the event would come and people would be like, "This event's awesome!", and I'd be like, "No. Did we sell out the event? How many people showed up? How much press did we get ahead of time?".
Was the marketing effective.
D: Yeah. I had my hands in all these different areas of life and work. I finally was like, "Okay, I'm going to stop everything I'm doing and just focus on marketing". So I launched Jelly.
Amazing. Thank you for sharing that path. It’s so valuable for people to see that careers are rarely a straight line. So why would you say stories matter at all, if they do, in your opinion?
D: I think it's in the core of who we are as humans. It's in our DNA. We respond to story. We digest information best if it comes in the form of a story. Some people might call them parables or proverbs. When we can hear these facts or stats or data in the form of a story or a life lesson or something that helps us see things in a new light, stories are incredible vessels for that. And are the life blood, I feel, of good education and good information. Some of the best educators simply just told stories and let people wrestle with them and figure it out from there.
That's great. Thanks for sharing that. This is another big one, so take your time with it. Who's a storyteller you admire?
D: Oh, there are so many incredible story tellers. I say one of my best friends is a guy by the name of Jon Imbeau. I love his storytelling ability. Incredible storyteller. Whether it's just hanging out around a fire or in more formal settings, his ability to captivate an audience with a story has been awesome. I've always loved Roald Dahl, you know, James and the Giant Peach. One of my favorite stories. I love those stories. Man, so many great storytellers out there. There's a podcast, what's it called? It's just storytellers. And it's got a cool, funky name. It's beautiful. The Moth. That's the name. The Moth. It's like a Ted talk but it's just stories. Again, there's no specific person in it, but they just find these really cool storytellers in different communities. Then they share those stories, which I really like. You know who I really, really love? One of my favorite storytellers. He's no longer with us, but he tells these Dave and Morley stories. It's called The Vinyl Cafe. You can still find it on the CBC and they're amazing.
Yeah. Classic.
D: Also, one of my favorite books is a children's book about life and who we are in identity called You Are Special by a guy named Max Lucado. It's my favorite. It's a children's book, but it's an amazing story about who we are as people and where our identity comes from.
Yeah. I love kids' books. I got the chance to write a kid's book last year, which meant I read a bunch of kids' books first. And I was like, how did I forget about these? These are the best. They're like little parables.
D: Oh, so good. So good.
What's a story you've created or shared that you're especially proud of?
D: I'd probably say I'm super proud of our ability to tell other people's stories really well. We kind of just finessed it. They had the story and our job was finesse it and amplify it and get it out there. That's probably the best role we play in that. It's hard though, too, because it's like, who's my favorite child. There's so many of our client work we've done I can't think of the best one.
What's a story you've seen recently that you've loved?
D: You know what? Moana. I love Moana by Disney. It's a great story. It's great for kids. Great for adults. It's just got a great message. I love Moana. The story there is awesome.
What was it about Moana for you that made it stay with you?
D: There's this moment at the end where she's walking towards what you think is the bad person in the movie, but really it's not. It's actually Mother Earth, Gaia, who's had her heart stolen. So she's there walking towards this big fiery monster and singing this beautiful song saying, "I know who you are. I know who you are". And she reaches out and returns the heart to this creature. Then they kind of bow down and touch heads. And she's like, I know who you truly are. It's this beautiful analogy, metaphor, and an amazing story of that, if we, in our lives, can feel like this big fiery monster and this beast, we have bad days, business isn't going well, or we get ghosted, or whatever happens in our life. But yet, we can find that voice in our life. We can find that anchor. It probably isn't going to be a young, Hawaiian girl singing over you or whatever that looks like, but have some voice sing over you that knows who you truly are. I know your heart. It's such a beautiful story.
I've got a now seven-year-old who's pretty wild. So every once in while I'll say to Evelyn, (whispers) "Evelyn, Evelyn, I got a story. I got to tell you something. I’ve got a secret come here". And I'll whisper it. And she'll be like, "Why? What is it?". And she'll come up my lap. And I'll say, "Evelyn, guess what?". She's like, "What?". And I'll say, "You are beautiful". And she'll look at me and get all peacocky and be like, “heh heh.” And she'll walk away all proud. And it's amazing.
And again, similar, it's very hard for us to get up on our dad's laps these days and have our dad whisper something in our ears that like, you are beautiful. You are amazing. I know you. I was part of making you, and you are perfect in every way. But if we can find that voice, if we can find that anchor, in our minds it changes everything. Everything. Everything we do. Because it doesn't matter what anyone's going to say to us. The patterns of this world, the lies of the world, the world that wants us to suck into some really unhealthy mold. But it's like, no, no, I was put on this earth for a reason. I've got backing that knows who I truly am. I've got a backing that whispers to me that I'm awesome. I am made this way for a reason.
It's one of the things I loved about working in hospice for the year, was I got this chance to meet people who are literally born and, not to be crass, they're born and they're just going to die. Right? Some of them can't even speak. Some of them can't even really move very well. But the philosophy at that place was like, they're made, and we're going to give them the best life, and we're giving life, and life to the fullest, until they die. Even then, we're going to give them a really amazing dying experience. Because they are made for a reason. We don't even know what disease they have. We haven't even figured this disease out yet, but let's give them an incredible experience while they're dying. I'll never forget that.
I think even today, now it's like, what does it look like as we interact with other humans? What do we look like as we interact with ourselves? Why are we on this earth? What is our purpose and finding that. I think sometimes it isn't going to some holy voice that says like, "You are made for this reason", but it's hearing that and getting that voice that can just say you're made and you were made for a purpose. You don't even need to know what it is today. I made you and you're awesome. I like your nose. I like your fingers. I like the way your toes do that weird thing. All those things. Then when we leave that, we've got that foundation and we've got that base of, I can then go forward and maybe pass it on to others and give acceptance to others. Because I have been accepted first.
Yeah. I feel like you just blew my mind in so many ways, but I think the thing that my brain's saying right now is just how powerful it is and maybe the best gift you can give someone is to see them. I feel like that's what that moment in Moana speaks to. I think what you just said is that idea of just the power of being seen and showing someone that you see them and what that builds out to, because then they go into the world and see and give that same gift to other people. I love it. I love it. Okay. What are some of the important stories being told right now? So Moana's a story you love, but are there important stories out in the world right now that you think are being told or need to be told more? And it can be any kind of story.
D: Okay. Well, speaking of The Moth, we talk about citizen journalism and we talk about opportunities. But I think they are so cool in that they let other people, who maybe don't have access to a platform, to tell their story. It's a really cool opportunity as far as storytelling and story platform and story amplification. I think everyone's story is important, but what I like about things like The Moth and others that tend to do this, is finding those unheard stories or stories that typically don't have a platform and don't have a mainstream media opportunity. That's the power of podcast. The power of good journalism. The good e-newsletters. You can get really cool, typically unheard stories out there.
Yeah. I love that. Okay. Last question. It's another big one, so please take your time. I want you to listen to your gut, your heart, your spirit, whatever it is that guides you in answering this question. Of course only share what you feel comfortable sharing. The question is, what is your philosophy or what is your governing principle or wisdom in life?
D: You know what? Actually, we totally stole it. It's on our website. Our core values. People talk about core values and they're like, "Yeah, I found this on Etsy". But we get really very old school, it's the virtues. What does the virtues of life look like? And there's the Greek virtues and all that stuff, but we've just taken that and used it, vocationally speaking. So, fairness, doing the just thing, prudence, thought before action, humility, serving others, temperance, right amount, right distance, and courage, or other people use fortitude. We've been trying to incorporate those into our own work mentality, but then again, whatever you do in work, sometimes it flows over into your personal life as well. So trying to live off of those kind of values, which again, all have been stolen, nothing new under the sun it typically seems.
Yeah.
D: But I think that the core of all of it, the humility factor is what we're trying to live by, the governing thing of, is this serving others? Am I able to put others before myself? I think that's where I'm trying to be governed by that, the philosophy of like, I'm not God in any way. I love this great quote. Denzel Washington said, I wake up in the morning and I got to get my slippers on, but I put them far under my bed. It's the idea of, you got to bow down on your knees to remember that I'm not God. There's someone greater than me or there's something greater than me in this world. It's not my job to impose myself on others. What I like about it too is, even going through the days sometimes and thinking what is out there? Who do you know? What do you want me to do today? Who do you want me to, serve or help? Trying to see what the spirit is doing around you, and being open to that.
Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Anything else that you wanted to add that you thought we might talk about? Or you want to share that hasn't come up?
D: Yeah. I think, maybe it's my simpleness or maybe in my naivety, but most of the times when I’m asking the spirit of what do you want to say? What are you asking for? I've never met, never heard, the spirit ever be mean or judgmental or shaming in any way. It's always quite the opposite. I feel like, if anything, spirits had really bad PR, had bad press, as far as it's been bad representation. But I feel like most of the time, the spirit's saying, it's just the desire to love on people and make sure they feel accepted and known that they're made. That there's someone greater than them, there's something bigger than them, that's crazy about them and thinking about them and dreaming about them. Maybe even singing over them, if needed at times.
Cool. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. And thank you for doing this interview. I am so grateful you took the time and shared so openly. Very much appreciated.
D: No, no. Of course, of course. I hope it was helpful. I'm so curious to see how this will turn up in written form.
Thanks so much. Take care.
D: Cheers. Bye.
Chantaie Allick
Writer|Strategist|Storyteller
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